Just some feedback. not being allowed to offer this is a real problem for me. As a product review channel I have lots of product that I can giveaway. I think theres probably a lot of channels that would also want to be able to give stuff away in lottery style raffles.
I want to understand why patreon doesnt allow this. If its because of the risk of scammers using it to entice people into joining through fake giveaways or rigged giveaways… Would it not be possible for patreon to act as the middle man. So if a patreon page does a giveaway. It has to do it through a bolt on application patreon provide. PAtreon then picks the winner from the tiering. Channel sends the prize to that person. That person confirms receipt. It becomes impossible to scam if you do it that way right?
Just an idea. Are there any options? Could we talk about why patreon does not allow them so we can understand how best to put in a solution? (if possible)
You can’t have ANY type of gambling and if you are trying to encourage people to join for the ‘chance’ to win something in a raffle, sadly that is considered gambling!
When I have done giveaways the only way to get around the gambling bit is to have it open to ALL people, everywhere on social media, not just your patrons, then you aren’t trying to get people to join as an incentive to subscribe…
I get around it by just doing it but its done exterrnally to patreon and I dont advertise it on my tier rewarding anymore which they are happy with, but I still do it, its basically the same. Its either that or I throw away all these products… I understand patreons issue. but they could facilitate a work around pretty easily. I can see this being a problem for lots of people. So its an opportunity to listen to its customers and improve something, so both sides get what they want. There are other ways around it but you have to remove the “random lotto” element. So I could round robin gifts in order of join date… but that of course will encourage people to leave after they gets something because they wont get anything else for another 5 years… very very hard.
Some might leave those higher tiers eventually, sure, but some might stay just to support you. Maybe check out HTME’s Patreon, they seem to have success with mailing out something rarely: https://www.patreon.com/HTME
I generate a large number of samples and test pieces. Every so often, I rake a pile of them together, and ask patrons to leave a comment if they’d like a random mailing from me. I work my way down the list of comments until everyone gets something, or I run out of stuff.
that they have a application. So if If I do a giveaway to say Tier 2. I set it up on their application (Patreon giveaway app). They generate the random number and pick the patreon. That patreon confirms he got the gift. Then you cant scam anyone… Its all legit. They could even charge for it. a pound a giveaway or something.
I thought they can’t at all due to gambling laws in different locations. So any “pay to win” by chance can’t work, even if they make 100% certain that the winner receives their reward. Unless I’m mistaken?
Given the severity and complexity of laws regarding gambling just in the States alone, I don’t think there is going to be a rush of some company having this feature. It seems like every major platform tries to avoid it–YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, etc. I don’t think there is cause for concern.
But if you still wanna find a work around, and I don’t mean this in a condescending manner, then I’d suggest finding a lawyer to talk to. We could toss around ideas all day, but unless one of us is well versed in the laws surrounding this issue, it’s kind of for naught.
So technically as long as you are not lotto with your reward you dont break TandC. so how about you say in your rewards that you will be certain of a prize eventually if you stay this tier. And you pick your winners however you want (you dont disclose to patreon how you do this). When someone wins they dont get another prize untill all other members of that tier have won. This way in theory means that your reward is not a lotto (lotto/raffle you can keep playing if you choose to). But it would just require you to stay signed up. Even if the reward winner was picked by random number its not a lotto its just a elimination method, once you win you are taken out of the pool of random numbers. I wonder if this is acceptable because you are guerentee’d a prize as long as you stay in the group long enough. Thats not gambling? do patreon read these posts and comment?
You could always use a giveaway platform like Gleam.io? I’ve used that platform before for giveaways when I collaborate with other brands. You’d have to direct your patrons to your Gleam page to enter, but it takes care of randomly drawing for you. I do recommend chatting with an attorney about rules/verbiage you can add as a disclaimer in the giveaway.
My name is Diogo and I’m on the Trust and Safety team. I hear your concerns and would like to try and help
First, as several people mentioned in this thread, the main reason why Patreon doesn’t allow benefits that involve any sort of gambling is due to laws and regulations regarding gambling, in the US and internationally. We also do care about and work to ensure there’s no scammers/scams on Patreon, but that is true beyond raffles and gambling and is a whole issue in and of itself.
Like @Temrin mentioned earlier in this thread, we published a blog post in May where we shared not only more details about our stance on Raffles and Gambling as a whole, but also several suggestions of alternative benefits and contests creators are allowed to run. There’s some pretty cool stuff in it, if I can say so, so be sure to check it out : Patreon’s stance on raffles, lotteries and giveaways.
Regarding the idea you mentioned:
Imagine someone becomes your patron today. You already have many other patrons. How long would that new patron need to wait to get that benefit? 1 month? 10 years? If it’s unclear, it becomes a matter of chance whether someone stays your patron long enough to get that benefit, because they can’t know when that will be. In another scenario, you gain two patrons in the same day. One of them gets the benefit after 1 month, the other after… well, they’re still waiting… This allows the first patron to make a decision on remaining a patron or not having already gotten the benefit they wanted, while the second patron is “stuck” waiting for a reward they don’t know when will come. You see how this still adds an element of chance to your patronage?
As highlighted in the the article shared above, there are multiple ways in which you can reward your patrons if you only have a limited quantity of a certain benefit. Here are some ideas:
Make it clear and consistent how long it takes to get that benefit. For example, once a year on the anniversary of the date each patron started supporting you (or a different time frame).
Create a higher tier limited to the number of items you can give each cycle, or limit an existing tier to that number. This way, every patron on that tier is certain of receiving that benefit, and every patron not on that tier is certain of not receiving it.
If that benefit is not very regular (maybe you only get products once in a while), you can instead create a Special Offer limited to the number of items you can give as a benefit.
Create contests where patrons can compete to win the benefit(s). You can decide how the winner(s) is/are decided, as long as the criteria for winning is/are clear to everyone participating and is/are not chance based. Now, you can indeed still decide behind close doors and away from ours and your patrons’ eyes that you’ll pick the winners randomly, but I would hope we can find a solution that everyone can be happy with - you, your patrons and Patreon
Let me know your thoughts and if you have other ideas you’d like to discuss. I’m happy to bounce ideas around so we can find the right solution for you!
But in regards to my work around. It is NOT a matter of chance it is mathematically guerentee’d that if they stay in that tier they will get a reward because when someone wins before them they are then eliminated until all others have won. That is not a raffle that is a not a lotto and that is not gambling. This is a method to work your way through a pool of people and make sure they all get a prize. Yes one may get the benefit after a month and the other might get the benefit after a year. but the point is the other one WILL get the benefit eventually. Therefore this cannot be gambling. And this does not breach your terms and conditions. In fact patreon dont even need to know how I select, all you need to know is the prize is guerentee’d.
I also preposed an alternative work around and patreon agree’d to it. My alternative work around was to create an external group prior to patreon (private facebook group). In this group I do giveaways, quiz’s, its a seperate community as well where I post content to. And all my tier would do was grant access to that group. What goes on in that group has nothing to do with patreon. Was told this was fine and I put it in place and then got told by someone else I could not do it.
The other options are not viable without introducing a requirment to constantly send things out in the post. I have to sort of box a lot of things up and send one box off. otherwise my life will turn into sending out individual bottles or stuff in the post constantly. And this will cost me more money than it makes.
Im desperate to fix this because like I say its a major problem for me. At the very least patreon need to understand that you will loose me as a customer as soon as something else comes along.
Welcome to the club.
Due to the nature of my art, it’s impossible for me to give away prints or duplicates. I can only give away original pieces and when each one of those takes around 20 hours to produce, you get hamstrung without being able to do a draw for an original, painted miniature from me.
I’ve lost a huge number of Patrons as a result, and they’ve slowly been trickling out. I’ve done what I can but it seems impossible to make anything but prints and duplicates of 2D art for give away to everyone. And that’s due to cost.
For me to give one Patron a miniature, it’s costing me more than $100 with shipping and the cost of the model combined. And that’s not even including the time it takes to paint.
I’ve given up on fighting this battle after having the Trust and Safety team all over me for it. I’ve done nothing but lose Patrons and money since. I’m down to half the income I was making when I first started, and that’s because doing give aways for a hundred people or more costs…a lot.
Regardless of what Patreon says, people are willing to pledge for a chance to win an original piece of art. Policies be damned. If people understand what their getting into and it’s clear that they have a chance at an original painted model, then I don’t see the problem. It’s not like there was any deception going on - I was clear and concise on what your chances were. And it was most signed up for tier. Now? I pulled the tier because I can’t offer anything that would make the $10 a month price tag worth it.
Video games have been using gambling for years without any intervention from the law. Yet as an Indy artist it’s impossible for me to do a cool give away for my Patrons/True Fans because of this policy.
Have you considered taking high quality photos of your 3D art and offering those? I’ve seen lots of 3D, even miniature, artists take amazing shots of their works, and those could definitely be made into prints Seems really popular in the cosplay community too. I’d ask your patrons/followers to check for interest.